Curse

Helcaraxe · Apr 06, 2007, 11:38 PM // 23:38

guys.... the nerf to soul reaping is NOT game breaking....

Honestly... soul reaping was (and probably still is) the single best primary attribute. Look at what some other classes get (fast casting, strength, spawning power) and quit your bitching.

However, the mesmer nerfs still pain me deeply, mistrust, guilt and shame which I used VERY often in PvE are now broken... nearly completely. The nerf on spirit of failure just nerfed my e-management for farming. Yeah, I actually have to bring a skill for e-mangement... necros can just sit there.

They even lowered minion costs to compensate... so I really don't see what the problem is.

Miral · Apr 07, 2007, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by wynoski

or make it so tat a necor cannot attak/cast while soul reaping...(when something dies, give the necro a 1/2 sec "time out" while it does its SR..that would be interesting....spells would take that much longer and attacks would stop...

That is an even worse idea than 5 second downtime on SR. with how often minions and enemies die, the necro would never be able to cast spells mid-battle

Miral · Apr 07, 2007, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helcaraxe

However, the mesmer nerfs still pain me deeply, mistrust, guilt and shame which I used VERY often in PvE are now broken... nearly completely. The nerf on spirit of failure just nerfed my e-management for farming. Yeah, I actually have to bring a skill for e-mangement... necros can just sit there.

yes.. but necros have to invest a buncha attribute points into soul reaping to get the energy. And may I remind you that soul reaping only has like 5 skills attributed to it, 3 of which are elite and the other two are signets that require certain conditions to be met. So yes, a mesmer has to take a skill for energy management, but that skill can be in an attribute that you will have points in anyway, whereas a necro has to take attribute points for energy management in an attribute they likely don't need for any other purpose. And now that the attribute can only activate once every 5 seconds... the only TIMED attribute... well, you can see where I am going.
Really, whose idea was this? Why didn't you devs just make it so you gain no benefit from spirits? you made this change because of pvp, and pve players dont tend to rely on spirits for soul reaping. So by just removing the benefit from spirits, you could sufficiently "fix" pvp while leaving the pve group alone.
If you insist on keeping this update, give us more soul reaping skills to make it a more useful attribute again. And give them in a FREE update, because I bet your sharp business minds are thinking of including it as a feature of GW:EotN.

The Great Al · Apr 07, 2007, 01:18 AM // 01:18

The nerf to SR only seems so terrible because it was so overpowered to begin with. All along, elems with their 'energy management' line, still need 1-2 energy spells in their skillbar, where SR basically took care of everythnig.

Heaven is a Lie · Apr 07, 2007, 01:30 AM // 01:30

i hate conjures now..

+10 dmg with no investment in the attribute
ridiculous

ensoriki · Apr 07, 2007, 01:55 AM // 01:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Owari_Muteki

I have mixed feelings about this update, about the nerfs and the Buffs. Yes I do know something needed to be done about SR, but alot of players will be working around/adapted to this in the next few hours. I think that pattern of releasing Team build based nerfs along side skill buffs make it really hard to see if the nerf was really effective. The skill synergy of many of the nerfed skills were keeping melee in check. (Yes, I know I will be flamed for what I'm about to say.) For example...

Yes, these skills were nerfed to shift the meta and open up viable options for other skill slots, but why nerf dmg mitigation and e-management when raw dmg has been steadily increasing? The cummaltive effects of these nerfs have yet to be seen. Skills like those were holding back alot of melee based "gimmick" builds.

For the failure Hexes, they were only trully overpowered in Hex overload teams. I think a 20 sec recharge is a bit too much for those spells.Yeah, I know it's only a 25% chance to miss, but it did help alot.
15 nrg for Reckless Haste, I'm fine with that. You just have to cast it at more opportune times.

These skills were a way to deal with all those Grenth Dervs and make those axe and Hammer wars have to wait for an opening, giving casters the time they needed to keep up with the DPS from melee classes.
My main Problem lies with how the big picture is affected. Player's will always be searching for the most broken skill combinations. Why would anyone want to play a build that is sub-par, especially when there is money on the line.(GvG tournaments) It is the mentality to abuse whatever you have at your disposal for the purpose of winning. There is nothing wrong with this, everyone likes to win. You create a build that exploits a certain set of skill synergies, sometimes they are very obvious other times they happen by accident.

Exploiting skills is becomming easier and easier to accomplish, each nerf to dominating builds is accompanied by the Over-buffing of under used skills. Some of these skills are literally screaming "OMG please I'm just waiting to be broken now!" (see the new Conjure's, warmonger/Brutal Wep, and soon to be Crip slash,Grenth Grasp,and Ava Lyssa)
After a nerf, players will natuarlly be looking to try new skills, they don't need much help picking new ones. Some skill builds evolve through time others evolve through pushing unused skills on players through over-buffs.

.

Brutal weapon could be over powered +25.... thats almost as strong as assassin lead and offhand, if sins are spikers why can a monk just put this on when his team gets wiped and kill things -_-.

AVatar of Lyssa isn't broken it has 2 big +'s but a conditional affect that kinda balances it.

Must hit ppl activating skills, with so much 1/4 skills -_- uh..dam annoying. Isn't grenth dead now anyways?

And reckless +failure all that stuff, I still think there over powered, theres anti and then theres just.....overkill.

A simple blind can ruin a large amount of melee, but this hexes, Most melee DOES NOT have hex removal, and even by getting a secondary the hex removal there isn't good enough for them.

Assassin power is already conditional enough, must hit in sequence, make sure your not blind, empathied,blocked, e-denialed -spoil victored....but those hexes weren't something u could go through -_-.

free_fall · Apr 07, 2007, 02:09 AM // 02:09

"necros relying on SR for energy management."

Well ... umm ... because that's how anet made us.

As has been pointed out, SR is a Primary Attribute, *not* a skill.

To all the Ws telling us to just eat it up and enjoy it - let's say they did the same thing to your PA, Strength. Every point of Str gives 1% Armor Penetration, so you have 11 Str you have 11%AP, always. Add a 5 sec timer to that so you get that AP only every 3rd-6th blow (depending on your weapon speed). You'd all be screaming bloody murder.

Same with Rangers and Expertise - 40% reduction in E cost at lvl 10, suppose that only kicked in every 5 secs?

Or Mes with FC, can only FC a spell every 5 secs. (Oops, maybe I shouldn't give them an idea on how to further nerf those poor Mes, sry.)

How about we put the E return on Elemental Attunement & Fire/Water/Earth/Air Attunement on a 5 sec timer - ele's might appreciate that, don't you think?

As has also been pointed out, not all of us necros play MMs.

Picture this: a mob of 3 Beast-sworn Hecket and 3 pet elder crocodiles coming around a corner (so they're all in a compact bunch), after having cast Awaken the Blood (10E), I cast SS (15E), Mark of Pain (10E) & Suffering (15E), the whole mob goes down in 4-6 secs and I get a single 11E return on my 50E investment.

Someone commented that us SS necs tend to concentrate on 1 target(!?!), so the change shouldn't affect us too much - lol, as you can see from that example, even concentraing on 1 target has used up most my 60-65E, even if it did bring down 6 enemies. But, sry, my job is to hit as many enemies as poss with as many degens as poss, in the shortest amt of time. This nerf is a disaster.

I won't address the PvP/PvE dabate - of those 2793 hrs, maybe 30 has gone into PvP, so I don't have the knowledge or exp to know if SR has been abused there. But from talking with other players over time, I would tend to agree that the bulk of anet's income does come from us PvE'ers - we're the ones with the extra accts/char slots, not the PvP'ers. But if it's a prob in PvP, then fix PvP, don't nerf PvE to make up for it.

And, ya, I've often thought that us necs are over-powered but, hey, maybe I *like* being over-powered. I finally got the bonus on THK the other night with my SS nec (1st time to get that bonus). During a lull in the fighting, someone said "this is going well" and the leader said "well, thank <yours truly>, he's doing most of the dmg ... no, he's doing pretty much all the dmg". Nice to be recognized by your fellow players.

I think this is maybe anet's way of telling me that I'm spending an excessive and possibly unhealthy amount of time (2793 hrs/20 mos = ~4 hrs @ day) playing their game, and that's it's time to move on to something else. Or that I've spent too much money on their games (2 regular Proph, 1 reg/1 CE Fact, 2 CE NF, 4 extra char slots) already, and they'd just as soon forego the sale of 2 CE GW:ENs if that would enhance my financial well-being. Too bad, cause I was really stoked about GW:EN, but it's for my own good, I guess.

Abarra · Apr 07, 2007, 02:24 AM // 02:24

OK I think this thread well and truly supports separating the way PvP and PvE skills work. There is soooo much argument between the two sides and both seem to think they're right and in some respects both are.

There will always be people that prefer pvp and always some that prefer pve and ne'er the twain shall meet it seems here o_O

I hate the SR nerf in pve, but I could live with it if they reduced bone fiend spell cost to 15. At 25 it takes half a necro's energy nearly just for one spell. SR was there to counter the high costs - reduce SR you should reduce all the costs not just those of horrors.

As has been stated SR is an attribute not a skill, not a build. For two years it has been fine and now they nerf it because of a glitch in pvp. Attributes should not be nerfed there should be another pvp workround.

That said, I'm of the view they should separate the skills, if they need nerfing in pvp then don't nerf them in pve and vice versa. get the skills working the best way for each game. PvP and PvE are different, they require different things. Limiting PvE players to skills balance for PvP is ultimately going to cripple the PvE experience to the point where people will not want to play it.

If that's what Anet want then fine, theyr'e nearly there - keep going.

If not they should listen to their players and come up with a workable solution for both sides.

The Ernada · Apr 07, 2007, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by free_fall

To all the Ws telling us to just eat it up and enjoy it - let's say they did the same thing to your PA, Strength. Every point of Str gives 1% Armor Penetration, so you have 11 Str you have 11%AP, always. Add a 5 sec timer to that so you get that AP only every 3rd-6th blow (depending on your weapon speed). You'd all be screaming bloody murder.

That's just a dumb example.

Strength is a passive PA. SR isn't. Besides Strength is already limited to attack skills only already. So yes it's ALREADY pretty much only every "3rd-6th blow" I wish SOME of you people will get your facts straight before arguing...

And now since "we're" using ridiculous examples, how about I say Strength should do 50 damage to all foes whenever something dies? That's more along the lines of what SR does.

SR could have used a different nerf than the way it is now though. This current solution wasnt the best one but neither is it that bad at all.

free_fall · Apr 07, 2007, 03:29 AM // 03:29

Since when did SR become an 'active' skill?

Unless I've missed something, Str works the same way SR does:

- for every lvl of Str, you gain 1% AP, so, for example, at lvl 11, every blow you strike has 11% AP

- for every lvl of SR, you gain 1E every time a creature dies, so at lvl 11, you get 11E when something dies

How is this different?

"Besides Strength is already limited to attack skills only already. So yes it's ALREADY pretty much only every "3rd-6th blow" I wish SOME of you people will get your facts straight before arguing..."

- Only the AP bonus Str provides is limited to attack skills, there is a whole host of Str related skills, last time I looked. Is Endure Pain an attack skill?

- Until NF, there have never been any SR related skills.

"And now since "we're" using ridiculous examples, how about I say Strength should do 50 damage to all foes whenever something dies? That's more along the lines of what SR does."

Talking about "ridiculous" examples, to use your words ...

- SR doesn't 'do' dmg, has never 'done' dmg, at least not b4 they added this new sig in NF. How do equate gaining E when a creature dies with somehow damaging that creature - it's already dead. You did the dmg b4 it died, and b4 you gained the SR benefit - it sure wasn't SR that 'caused' the dmg.

BTW, my other main playing char is a W and I've logged more hrs on him than even the necro.

And, just for the record, I think my W is ridiculously over-powered, too. Can we nerf these guys next?

Rakeman · Apr 07, 2007, 03:43 AM // 03:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

And now since "we're" using ridiculous examples, how about I say Strength should do 50 damage to all foes whenever something dies? That's more along the lines of what SR does.

Except for the fact that Strength has a TON of skills linked to it while Soul Reaping has 5... 2 of which are viable to be used in builds.

Most people wont put 10 points in strength without having some strength skills or a shield. People WILL put points in Soul Reaping just for the effect. That's what you forgetting.

The Ernada · Apr 07, 2007, 04:04 AM // 04:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by free_fall

blah blah blah

I wasnt talking about Skills from Strength at all. I was making a point that your example was just bad. 5 second cycles for Strength is far far different than a 5 second cycle for SR. That's like comparing Critical Attacks and Divine Favor and complaining that you don't get +health for making a critical hit. It's comparing two completely different attributes with different mechanics.

Skills from either attribute have nothing to do with what I'm saying. You made a bad analogy and I called you out on it. That is all.

Rakeman · Apr 07, 2007, 04:18 AM // 04:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

I wasnt talking about Skills from Strength at all. I was making a point that your example was just bad. 5 second cycles for Strength is far far different than a 5 second cycle for SR. That's like comparing Critical Attacks and Divine Favor and complaining that you don't get +health for making a critical hit. It's comparing two completely different attributes with different mechanics.

Skills from either attribute have nothing to do with what I'm saying. You made a bad analogy and I called you out on it. That is all.

He didn't make a bad analogy. Putting points in strength gives you both armor penetration AND access to a bunch of skills. Putting point in soul reaping gives you energy at a max speed of once every 5 seconds, and maybe A skill that might be somewhat helpful if the conditional requirements are met.

brian78wa · Apr 07, 2007, 04:19 AM // 04:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helcaraxe

They even lowered minion costs to compensate... so I really don't see what the problem is.

Problem is this isnt compensating anything. Just because youre a necro doesnt mean you have minions. I use my necro often for Curses so low minion cost doesnt help me at all. I have a pretty low energy cost build yet I still find myself running low on energy now.

ensoriki · Apr 07, 2007, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Oh god Necros can whine like hell.

Our energy managemtn took a 5 second nerf!

And dude who said 11 energy back for 50 energy, So what? lets compare some stuff

Ritualist
THey dont have an e-management PRIMARY, guess what because soul reaping is a an attribute it will work on its own without u worrying about it.

Ritualists spells cost out the butt chunks.

Dam argument is stupid
I dont have FULL energy instantly after killing a mob anymore -_-.
Meh MM's are Bordering on overpowered and the nerf just changes some skills.

Other Primary's have been nerfed
Look at the Dervish.

Whats more annoying is that in pvp those who werent MM and find energy management problems now.

That means you had someone more than every 5 seconds -_- 11 energy every 1/2 seconds then?
Most classes bring energy management or energy reducers why cant the Necro?

brian78wa · Apr 07, 2007, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abarra

As has been stated SR is an attribute not a skill, not a build. For two years it has been fine and now they nerf it because of a glitch in pvp. Attributes should not be nerfed there should be another pvp workround.

The work around is easy. dont allow energy gain from spirits. Thats what the problem is. Change that problem solved for both PvP AND PvE

Helcaraxe · Apr 07, 2007, 05:38 AM // 05:38

oh no! SR doesnt have any good skills in it is your complaint now.... FEEL MY PAIN!!!! FAST CASTING HAS NEVER HAD ANY GOOD SKILLS IN IT!

Shmanka · Apr 07, 2007, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian78wa

The work around is easy. dont allow energy gain from spirits. Thats what the problem is. Change that problem solved for both PvP AND PvE

No one understands this... like ANet does Gaile translate everything into english for the devs? I don't care how imba PvE is, this mod to PvP solves nothing to a great extent. Just make it not work on spirits why are the devs so insistant that it HAS to work on spirits?

Mourne · Apr 07, 2007, 08:28 AM // 08:28

My thoughts too Shmanka. All they need is the old SR, no energy from spirits, and 1/4-1/2 from minions.

elsalamandra · Apr 07, 2007, 09:24 AM // 09:24

ORBITUARY

RIP

here lies the the remians of the necromancer class.

after dealing and succeeding on deaths, through soul reaping it has been killed off by its creators.

'book'em danno. murder 1' (famous phrase from hawaii 5 0)